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Redcomet
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 Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| A. As i said before you pilot ability isn't passed along from one generation to another, you gotta train like everyone else. You may have the talent, but not the skill. Also i think you people put too much credit to the good doctor. As for Mwu's "mother" again you cannot be a great pilot because your parents were. Even if it is true where does it say Al was a pilot? This is almost as inane as the "CE is more advanced because it was made after UC." debacle. You people have no proof that AL da flaaga ever piloted. Until you show me a statemnt by Fukada himself saying Al was a greta pilot, you are all spewing nonsense. It's almost like you cling to this theroy in order to prop up the theory Kira is somehow related to Al, Mwu, Rau, and Rey via genetics.......There is no proof that Al ever flew a plane, Hibiki found out he has desirable genes and used them for kira. As well as this being used to explain Kira's "Newtype" abilities. Even so, CE newtypes are nothing compared to the real thing. |
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Mirinee
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:01 am Post subject: |
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I know there's no proof to whether Kira had Flaga genes. I just wanted to see opinions.
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luna_rainbow's opinion: Kira developed the flash by himself throughout the course of the series.
(Rau's age: It looks possible, but on the Gundam official site it said Mwu was 28 years old, and Rau is definitely younger than Mwu.)
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velvet nightmare's opinion: Kira did get Flaga genes, because it's statistically unlikely more than 1 person will evolve the ability.
Fair enough.
(Rau's age: It has nothing to do with appearances, but his true age will always be less or equal to 28. Besides, who's to say that the aging really existed? It's just fan speculation. There was some discussion on it in the Rau Le Creuset thread.)
DRAGOONS: Oh interesting. So Flaga "spacial ability" thing is no longer required for them anymore in Gundam SEED Destiny. That explains a lot...
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jimbob's opinion: Rau was not Coordinator. Kira did get Flaga genes.
1) How can you be sure that Rau piloted Coordinator OS Mobile Suits? All the ones he piloted were customs, so they could have had Natural OS installed. What has this to do with the "spacial ability" thing? I thought it was like SEED Mode in that it can happen in both Natural and Coordinators.
2) Isn't the "spacial awareness"/flash/newtype/whatever ability either there or not, and no in-between? Flaga Snr. probably didn't know about his ability because he didn't pilot (as Redcomet pointed out), so I doubt that Mwu's mother weakened it at all. It is apparent that Mwu has inherited this ability. I think it's got nothing to do with Rau being a coordinator.
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coba's opinion: Rau was a coordinator. "Al's genes don't enhance piloting skill" (Eh? How do you explain Rau's and Mwu's flash then?)
So I take it you think Kira doesn't have Flaga genes so he developed the ability himself?
Mwu was an ace pilot. He was one of the few people who were able to pilot Moebius Zero. Since Mwu was Al's son, it's logical to think he inherited it, unless you think that Mwu developed the ability himself as well? What are the chances of that?
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RedComet's opinion: Kira did not get Flaga genes.
Okay, and you keep saying that Flaga Snr might not have been a good pilot, but what they cared about is whether he had the potential, which he seemed to. When Hibiki got Flaga Snr's DNA set for cloning, would Hibiki be able to find and recognise whether he had the flash ability thing? (I think jimbob was trying to say this too). When you said it was all in the training, do you mean that you think that anyone can develop this flash ability eventually, if they trained hard enough?
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Wow, that was 2 yes and 3 no. I don't know what to conclude. ^^;
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coba
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| jimbob wrote: | | But Mwu was his son. Rau and Rey were HIM. Mwu also got good piloting genes but wasn't as good as his father because he only inherited them. Or by Al's logic Mwu's mothers genes weakened his piloting skills while Rau and Rey were pure Al. |
Well, for Raww and Rey's case, I just want to point out that we don't know whether they are coordinator or not. We know that both of them are clones so it is quite possible Ulen Hibiki also play around with their genes.
Just think about this: all Al's clones (Raww, Rey, Prayer) can operate the original Zaft MS without having much difficulties. However, Mwu can't even move the original Strike Gundam in the beginning of GS (something that regular coordinators can do). If Al's genes really enhance the piloting skill, shouldn't Mwu at least be able to move the Strike ?
| Quote: | | coba's opinion: Rau was a coordinator. "Al's genes don't enhance piloting skill" (Eh? How do you explain Rau's and Mwu's flash then?) |
Well, what's the use of the flash though. In UC, we all know that being a NT == powerful pilot. It is not really the case in CE though. The "NT" reactions only helps Kira/Raww/Rey in specific occasion (e.g when they fight against each other). They certainly doesn't help them much in all condition.
Also, Fukuda himself denies that newtype exists in CE in the interview after GS. It seems the flash is a way for him to pay homage to the old UC.
| Quote: | | So I take it you think Kira doesn't have Flaga genes so he developed the ability himself? |
You get it wrong, I think Kira does have the Al's genes. However, whether Al's genes enhance the piloting skill or not is still a debatable issue.
| Quote: | | Mwu was an ace pilot. He was one of the few people who were able to pilot Moebius Zero. Since Mwu was Al's son, it's logical to think he inherited it, unless you think that Mwu developed the ability himself as well? What are the chances of that? |
Well I already recognize it in my original post right ? I mentioned that the "NT" ability in CE allows them to use the old Dragoon/Gun barrel system even though with the lates technology, other people can also operate the sytems easily.
Also, I quote "Remember Rau was such an awesome pilot that he was able to use Zaft's OS (which most ordinary natural pilots could not use) and outperform the majority of the people the system was designed for."
--> If Raww's performance is due to Al's genes, how come Mwu who also inherit some of the genes can't do similar thing (e.g at least make the MS move without the help of the addvanced OS just like all ZAFT's pilots do)
| Quote: | | 1) How can you be sure that Rau piloted Coordinator OS Mobile Suits? All the ones he piloted were customs, so they could have had Natural OS installed. |
p.s: in the beginning of GS, natural hasn't developed any OS at all (Kira was the one who did it for the naturals), but Raww was already a MS pilot right ?
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Mirinee
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| coba wrote: | | p.s: in the beginning of GS, natural hasn't developed any OS at all (Kira was the one who did it for the naturals), but Raww was already a MS pilot right ? |
I still think that Rau was piloting Natural Mobile Suits. Just because EA side's Naturals haven't developed any OS doesn't mean that the ZAFT side hasn't got one. They don't share technology. Rau was supposed to have been friends with Durandal, so he could easily have got coordinator experts to secretly program him some Natural OS to put into his custom MS's. (I'd like to imagine what the Creuset team would make of it if they find out.) I digress.
Okay. NT doesn't exist in CE then. I give up trying to make any sense of the flash thing. *Waves white flag*.
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Redcomet
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| You don't listen do you, show....me....the....proof....Al daFlaaga....was...a....pilot. |
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luna_rainbow
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| Mirinee wrote: | | Kira developed the flash by himself throughout the course of the series. |
First of all, thanks for summarising all that!  I'm kinda a fence-sitter on this one. We're only getting a "sliced" view of the CE universe, and it's possible that there exists other people with NT who's never been mentioned. All I was saying in that post was that Kira's NT abilities developed over the two series, which is why he didn't flash with Rau, but he did with Rey. Whether or not this development was completely "by himself" or due to his genes is a different argument ^^;
Look, genetics isn't as simple as it sounds (at least not with our current knowledge, which I assume is what Fukuda's basing it off). You don't just cut and paste desirable genes.
If the NT ability is genetic - there is no need to know that Al Da Flaga has piloting potential. If you know anything about linked genes, it's highly likely that the NT ability was linked to something else, whatever that trait is.
I'm saying this because it makes it possible for there to be no knowledge of NT, or of Al Da Flaga's potential as a pilot. For example, the lab could have selected an Al Da Flaga gene for "double jointed thumb", and the NT gene might have been linked to that gene and transferred to Kira.
So you don't need to know Al Da Flaga's piloting skills, and you don't need to know anything about NT for Kira to get the NT gene.
In other words, it's one of those things that will always be up in the air until Fukuda says something about inheritance. |
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coba
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Mirinee wrote: | | I still think that Rau was piloting Natural Mobile Suits. Just because EA side's Naturals haven't developed any OS doesn't mean that the ZAFT side hasn't got one. They don't share technology. Rau was supposed to have been friends with Durandal, so he could easily have got coordinator experts to secretly program him some Natural OS to put into his custom MS's. (I'd like to imagine what the Creuset team would make of it if they find out.) I digress. |
Okay here is the deal: all MS come with a really really basic OS. However, for EA's MS, the OS has a specific program to assist the pilot in piloting the MS while for ZAFT's MS, the OS don't include this program since most of coordinator can easily pilot the MS without any assistant from theprogram. Also, all coordinators usually modify the OS when they enter the cockpit for the first time. That's what differentiate coordinator from natural in piloting MS.
You are right, we don't know that much about Raww's past, but we do know that Rey did enroll in academy. If Rey can only pilot the MS with the assitance of a specific OS, he won't pass the test though since in academy, all students will likely have to pilot a standard ZAKU/GINN.
This is the part that raise a question: are you sure that all of Al' clones don't have their genes modified ? In term of piloting MS, Rey/rayer/Raww exhibits a similary ability as coordinator while Mwu doesn't.
| Quote: | | Okay. NT doesn't exist in CE then. I give up trying to make any sense of the flash thing. *Waves white flag". |
I don't know whetehr you are sarcastic or not, but that's what Fukuda said. 
Just to let you know that even Fukuda hasn't really explain what "Seed factor" is, so don't expect him to explain what "flash" Kira has.
| Quote: | | In other words, it's one of those things that will always be up in the air until Fukuda says something about inheritance. |
Lol, good luck with waiting for his explanation.
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jimbob
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Redcomet wrote: | | You don't listen do you, show....me....the....proof....Al daFlaaga....was...a....pilot. |
Well there isn't it's just speculation. But I like the idea of Kira getting his newtype flashes from Al's genetics rather them giving it to him for no logical reason. |
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luna_rainbow
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| coba wrote: |
| Quote: | | In other words, it's one of those things that will always be up in the air until Fukuda says something about inheritance. |
Lol, good luck with waiting for his explanation. |
Well, I'm not holding my breath 
Just bringing up a previous quote...
| Mirinee wrote: | | Besides, who's to say that the aging really existed? It's just fan speculation. There was some discussion on it in the Rau Le Creuset thread. |
Are you referring to the shortened telomeres? I thought that's less speculation than an existing technical limitation in cloning? |
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velvet nightmare
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:36 am Post subject: |
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spatial awareness HAS to give you some advantage when it comes to piloting mobile suits
im sure it knowing where everything is on the battlefield and memorizing their exact spots and details along with movements has to merit some sort of benefit
in any case, mwu's genes were 'diluted' from al so maybe his physical traits didnt allow him to be as good as the clones when it came to piloting
it's still a possibility but its most probable seeing as how BOTH rau and rey pass as coordinators even though they're supposed to be naturals |
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coba
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| velvet nightmare wrote: | spatial awareness HAS to give you some advantage when it comes to piloting mobile suits
im sure it knowing where everything is on the battlefield and memorizing their exact spots and details along with movements has to merit some sort of benefit |
I agree. It is not only in the battle field, high spatial awareness will give you extra advantage in other area too e.g: in construction/ civil engineering. The problem is that we have the so called coordinator in CE. The coordinators already get their genes modified. I am pretty sure some of the genes also maps the spatial awareness that they posses. So it is quite possible that some of the top ace like Athrun can likely rival the spatial awareness of Kira's.
It is kinda confusing right now. In UC, being a NT will make the pilot invincible but in CE, we already played around too much with human's genes.
| Quote: | in any case, mwu's genes were 'diluted' from al so maybe his physical traits didnt allow him to be as good as the clones when it came to piloting
it's still a possibility but its most probable seeing as how BOTH rau and rey pass as coordinators even though they're supposed to be naturals |
Well one thing that it is still a blur for me is the advantage given by coordinator and Al de Flaga's genes. Also, is it official that both of them are natural ? As far as I remember, Fukuda never said that Raww and Rey are natural though. I can't rule out the possibility that all of Al's clones are coordinators to some extent. After all, Hibiki already played with human genes to clone them so we don't really know whether he also play around with their genes or not.
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velvet nightmare
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| coba wrote: |
Well one thing that it is still a blur for me is the advantage given by coordinator and Al de Flaga's genes. Also, is it official that both of them are natural ? As far as I remember, Fukuda never said that Raww and Rey are natural though. I can't rule out the possibility that all of Al's clones are coordinators to some extent. After all, Hibiki already played with human genes to clone them so we don't really know whether he also play around with their genes or not. |
that would be up for grabs i would suppose
i guess hibiki would have the restriction imposed on him for a direct clone
the thing against them being coordinators is that hibiki would have great troubles altering the genes the way he wanted, since he was having such great trouble making the ultimate coordinator
so it would seem unlikely that he would be able to directly alter the genes ontop of making a clone
actually if he made the clones coordinators, he would in essence have created an ultimate coordinator b/c the process would be perfect without the variables of a womb |
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Redcomet
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| I don't know if he made Raw a coordinator or not. Raw could have easily fooled his way into ZAFt with his spacial awareness. |
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luna_rainbow
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| velvet nightmare wrote: | | actually if he made the clones coordinators, he would in essence have created an ultimate coordinator b/c the process would be perfect without the variables of a womb |
That would depend on the cloning process. One way of doing it is putting the cloned cells into a surrogate mother, and for her to bear the clone child. I think (don't quote me) that's the way it's been done currently with animals. So there's still the variable womb conditions problem. |
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coba
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Raw could have easily fooled his way into ZAFt with his spacial awareness. |
We all know that Mwu can't control the original Strike in the beginning of GSD since he is natural eventhough he has high spatial awareness. Logically, if Raww did go to academy, he has to pilot a standard Ginn created for coordinators. If he is natural, how can he pilot it though (unless he install a OS to help him, but everyone will surely suspect him)?
This is the only question that most of us can't really explain unless somehow, Raww has a little bit of coordinator's trait.
| Quote: | | i guess hibiki would have the restriction imposed on him for a direct clone |
Well, I am pretty sure that Hibiki isn't suppose to steal Da Flaga's genes and implants them for his ultimate coordinator project. But it seems he did it.
| Quote: | the thing against them being coordinators is that hibiki would have great troubles altering the genes the way he wanted, since he was having such great trouble making the ultimate coordinator
so it would seem unlikely that he would be able to directly alter the genes ontop of making a clone
actually if he made the clones coordinators, he would in essence have created an ultimate coordinator b/c the process would be perfect without the variables of a womb |
First, I am not really into cloning stuff so I am not scientifically 100% sure about this, but isn't it possible for Hibiki to replace some of the genes in the clone with the existing coordinator genes instead of enhancing the genes (like they does to the first generation coordinators)?
Also, Hibiki did make some other ultimate coordinators even though they are defects. I just take Canard Pars as an example. He is a failed UC, but he is still coordinator, isn't he? It was difficult to make the succesful UC, but if Hibki accept some of the failures he can still make them
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velvet nightmare
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| coba wrote: |
We all know that Mwu can't control the original Strike in the beginning of GSD since he is natural eventhough he has high spatial awareness. Logically, if Raww did go to academy, he has to pilot a standard Ginn created for coordinators. If he is natural, how can he pilot it though (unless he install a OS to help him, but everyone will surely suspect him)?
This is the only question that most of us can't really explain unless somehow, Raww has a little bit of coordinator's trait. |
thats a good point, but that would also explain that mwu's genes were diluted
and that would point to al having 'some' traits that exceed naturals but are just enough to allow for piloting a MS with the coordinator OS
| Quote: | | i guess hibiki would have the restriction imposed on him for a direct clone |
Well, I am pretty sure that Hibiki isn't suppose to steal Da Flaga's genes and implants them for his ultimate coordinator project. But it seems he did it.
| coba wrote: |
First, I am not really into cloning stuff so I am not scientifically 100% sure about this, but isn't it possible for Hibiki to replace some of the genes in the clone with the existing coordinator genes instead of enhancing the genes (like they does to the first generation coordinators)? |
the thing is that then the clone wouldnt be a 'clone' in essence which is what they're supposed to be
there's nothing to suggest that their genetics were altered in any way aside from the aging factor
| coba wrote: |
Also, Hibiki did make some other ultimate coordinators even though they are defects. I just take Canard Pars as an example. He is a failed UC, but he is still coordinator, isn't he? It was difficult to make the succesful UC, but if Hibki accept some of the failures he can still make them |
yeah but canard pars was intended to be a full coordinator, while rau and rey were intended to only be clones
rau in every way is a perfect clone, the only defect being the accelerated aging that the scientist screwed up because of faulty tampering
in essence rau cant be a coordinator and a clone at the same time
if he was a coordinator he probably wouldnt hate naturals or coordinators that much because he would be apart of the picture, it would be hard for him to judge both sides if he was on the coordinator one |
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luna_rainbow
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| velvet nightmare wrote: | | there's nothing to suggest that their genetics were altered in any way aside from the aging factor |
| velvet nightmare wrote: | | rau in every way is a perfect clone, the only defect being the accelerated aging that the scientist screwed up because of faulty tampering |
No no, it's not like that. Quickly biology lesson: at the ends of your chromosomes there's a little "cap" called "telomeres". Every time your cells replicate, these shorten. Eventually it reaches a stage where your cells lose the ability to replicate.
To prevent telomeres shortening is thought to be the key to preventing aging.
When you're cloning someone, especially directly from an adult like Al Da Flaga, his cells have already gone through many replication cycles. The clone's cells would then have a much less number of replications cycles left, which is supposedly why Rau and Rey have hastened aging.
So it's not really proof that Hibiki tampered with their genes, rather that he didn't fix the telomeres problem. |
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coba
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | the thing is that then the clone wouldnt be a 'clone' in essence which is what they're supposed to be
yeah but canard pars was intended to be a full coordinator, while rau and rey were intended to only be clones
in essence rau cant be a coordinator and a clone at the same time |
Well, we don't really know how the cloning process works since it is after all sci-fi. Let me just take an example in Jurassic Park. They still use the term "cloning the dinosaur" when in fact they replace some of the genes in the clones with frog's DNA.
p.s: I am using Canard Pars to show that Hibiki ca actually create a lot of prototypes for UC. Even if they are failure, they are still coordinator. After all, if the case is just like in the Jurassic park, Hibiki doesn't need to create Raww/Rey as UC, but rather, incomplete ones.
There are too many question marks in this case. In the ned, it goes back to square one: if Raww/Rey doesn't possess coordinators' ability, ho can they survive in the academy piloting MS. We all know that no naturals can pilot an MS without the assistance of OS.
| Quote: | | if he was a coordinator he probably wouldnt hate naturals or coordinators that much because he would be apart of the picture, it would be hard for him to judge both sides if he was on the coordinator one |
Not really. Raww thinks that he is the judge of humankinds (both natural and coordinators) and everyone aside of himself must be dead. He is crazy and thus, it is not really about his background. Just think about it carefully, everyone in ZAFT thinks and treats him as one of them. Only a crazy person wants to destroy others who are nice to him.
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velvet nightmare
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| coba wrote: |
There are too many question marks in this case. In the ned, it goes back to square one: if Raww/Rey doesn't possess coordinators' ability, ho can they survive in the academy piloting MS. We all know that no naturals can pilot an MS without the assistance of OS. |
yeah there are
but arnt there some elite natural pilots in astray or something that prefer to use the coordinator OS?
so maybe they're just really really gifted? |
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Lord Sagara
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah Rena Imelia from MSV supposedly used a coordinator OS when she first started.I think thats about it though.
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coba
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | yeah there are
but arnt there some elite natural pilots in astray or something that prefer to use the coordinator OS?
so maybe they're just really really gifted? |
As far as I know, there is no single natural who can pilot the MS without any assistance from special program. That's the reason why they still use Mobieus Zero while the ZAFT already employ MS (Dinn/Ginn).
| Quote: | | Yeah Rena Imelia from MSV supposedly used a coordinator OS when she first started.I think thats about it though. |
As far as I remember, the OS is already altered though. Remember back in GS, the strike already had the OS. The problem is that it needs Morgenroete (with the help of Kira) to modify the original OS somehow so that natural can easily pilot it.
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velvet nightmare
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| mwu never got into the strike with its original OS did he? |
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Lord Sagara
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| coba wrote: | | Quote: | yeah there are
but arnt there some elite natural pilots in astray or something that prefer to use the coordinator OS?
so maybe they're just really really gifted? |
As far as I know, there is no single natural who can pilot the MS without any assistance from special program. That's the reason why they still use Mobieus Zero while the ZAFT already employ MS (Dinn/Ginn).
| Quote: | | Yeah Rena Imelia from MSV supposedly used a coordinator OS when she first started.I think thats about it though. |
As far as I remember, the OS is already altered though. Remember back in GS, the strike already had the OS. The problem is that it needs Morgenroete (with the help of Kira) to modify the original OS somehow so that natural can easily pilot it. |
Yeah but thing is that the Dagger was already being put into production(or testing anyways)and they never got the copy of the OS Kira made for Orb so its not unlikely that the first few Daggers used coordinator OS before they developed an OS that naturals could use >..>
And I don't think so.When he first got into the Strike it was AFTER Kira rewrote the OS :\
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coba
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yeah but thing is that the Dagger was already being put into production(or testing anyways)and they never got the copy of the OS Kira made for Orb so its not unlikely that the first few Daggers used coordinator OS before they developed an OS that naturals could use >..> |
Well let's just use computer as analogy: all of the computers already have the OS (e.g: Windows). The problem is that for naturals, they can't run the computer properly unless they install additional program while the coordinators can use the computer right away.
Similarly, the basic OS installed for MP MS of both sides (EA and ZAFT) probably have similar features. However, naturals can't properly move the MS while coordinators don't exhibit similar problem.
Also, about the Strike Dagger, they are first officially deployed in CE 71 May 21 which is about 2 weeks after the AA made contacts with Alaska base. Remember, they give all of the information (likely include the development of the OS made by Kira) to the EA commander in the base . I think two weeks is more than enought time to install them to the Dagger.
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velvet nightmare
Gundam Pilot
Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 2271
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:07 am Post subject: |
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ok so they probably did install into the daggers then
so if mwu never got a chance to get into strike with a coordinator MS then we'll never know if he can actually handle it like rey or rau
it took time for him to adapt to the natural OS but we still dont know if he can actually practice for the coordinator one |
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