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Phase 34-Kira VS Shinn? Is Shinn's win "fair"??
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Is Shinn's win over freedom "fair"?
Yes!
57%
 57%  [ 15 ]
No!
42%
 42%  [ 11 ]
Total Votes : 26

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ACE-Xkira
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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 5:13 am    Post subject: Phase 34-Kira VS Shinn? Is Shinn's win "fair"?? Reply with quote

I'm not sure if there's something similar to this before, but I guess I just want to know your opinion.
The factors that will determine the outcome of the battle:
Skill
Mobile Suit
Terrain
Emotions
Distraction
Other factors

First off,

Skill: Kira and Shinn's skills. This is controversial and debated. At this point of time, it should be obvious that Kira's skill is better. However, without having a formal battle with Shinn(before Phase.34) it is undecided.

Mobile Suit: The Freedom is equipped with the Neutron Jammer Canceller, which means it boasts unlimited energy and able travel at high speeds. This gives this a huge advantage over other Mobile Suits, as N-Jammers are banned in the Junius treaty after the Bloody Valentine war. Both Mobile Suits have Phase-Shift armor. It is not much difference, but one major advantage is that Impulse has the ability to switch Silhouette packs to deal with the situation.

Terrain: Being in a mountainous terrain, Freedom would have a disadvantage, having less space to move around, and as everyone knows, Kira always like to use the cool&fast moves to destroy opponents! This may affect Freedom's ability, having being knocked down, would meet with deadly crashes. However, Kira seems to be in control of the situation.

Emotions: Shinn's emotions was still sobbing over Stella, and taken over by increased hatred and vows to destroy the Freedom.
Twisted Evil This certainly increases performance, and activates his Seed Mode when Kira doesn't.

Distraction: Kira, being distracted over the ArchAngel and the crew's safety, had several impacts. Kira did not notice several attacks and got damaged as a result of it. He also has to deal with the other MS attacking the ArchAngel and the Minerva. All these would have helped Shinn, having Kira not paying enough attention to his battles. Kira appears to be better when he's not being distracted, and performs better when battling the Destiny in Orb.

Other Factors: Once, Kira managed to destroy the Impulse head and arm. However, Shinn quickly recovers by replacing its body parts, and even using Silhouette packs to damage the Freedom. This gives it a huge advantage, having Freedom unable to repair body parts while Impulse is able to replace them several times.

This would be all of it. I am interested to hear your opinion here. Feel free to discuss and debate but no insulting and cursing or I will bring this topic down. Debate is a skill, it is a hobby, it is a game.
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XXXG-01D
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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer the starting question, yes I believe Shinn's victory over Kira in Phase 34 was fair, for the simple reason that they are in a war and there is no such thing as unfair in a war.

Quote:
Skill: Kira and Shinn's skills. This is controversial and debated. At this point of time, it should be obvious that Kira's skill is better. However, without having a formal battle with Shinn(before Phase.34) it is undecided.


That's an issue that's been kicked around here quite a bit. I would certainly agree that Kira has more experience against different types of combatants, and I would probably say that the two are about equal in reflexes, but a large part of skill is situational awareness, and that's where Kira falls short, evidenced just two episodes prior in Phase 32, where Kira in SEED mode was unable to figure out how to damage the Destroy in several minutes of combat, while Shinn without SEED mode was able to deal damage to the Destroy in about 15 seconds.

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Mobile Suit: The Freedom is equipped with the Neutron Jammer Canceller, which means it boasts unlimited energy and able travel at high speeds.


There's a little more to it than that. It also has a high-mobility mode that no other mech possesses, his weapons don't have a power cap on them the way everything else has to have, and he has much greater firepower than the any Impulse Silhouette but the Blast Impulse.

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It is not much difference, but one major advantage is that Impulse has the ability to switch Silhouette packs to deal with the situation.


True, that is an advantage, but it's also one that requires good timing and a plan to use effectively. Had Shinn not blown up the Chest Flyer and the Force Silhouette in Kira's face, Kira would have been free to shoot down the incoming parts. To quote my good buddy Weltall "the extra parts are not a guaranteed 'extra life' so to speak, there are weaknesses".

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Terrain: Being in a mountainous terrain, Freedom would have a disadvantage, having less space to move around, and as everyone knows, Kira always like to use the cool&fast moves to destroy opponents!


They didn't seem to be down in the ravines, though. There were a couple of times where you could see Kira looking down into the mountains at the Archangel, implying that Freedom and Impulse were above the peaks.

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This may affect Freedom's ability, having being knocked down, would meet with deadly crashes.


It certainly could, except for the Phase Shift Armor, which negates physical damage. There is also the fact that Kira could have knocked Shinn down as well, using the force behind the railguns, so that works both ways.

Quote:
Emotions: Shinn's emotions was still sobbing over Stella, and taken over by increased hatred and vows to destroy the Freedom.
This certainly increases performance


Perhaps, perhaps not. Phase 50 certainly proved that hatred and rage don't always=victory, so saying that Shinn's emotions are a definite advantage isn't necessarily correct.

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and activates his Seed Mode when Kira doesn't.


Kira was in SEED mode the whole fight. He activates it before Shinn gets there when shooting down the ZAFT grunts attacking the Archangel.

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Distraction: Kira, being distracted over the ArchAngel and the crew's safety, had several impacts.


Kira has been in the situation of having to defend the Archangel numerous times before, such as against the Le Creuset team and the Druggies, and in those battles he was up against multiple opponents rather than the one he faces in the form of Shinn in Phase 34. So what is so different this time, what is he incapable of doing this time that he was capable of doing all the previous times, besides being up against an opponent who is comparable in skill to himself?

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Kira did not notice several attacks and got damaged as a result of it.


What attacks did he not notice? He was facing Shinn when Shinn bounced his shot off the shield, the top half of the Impulse blowing up in his face caused no damage, it just tossed him around a bit, he got his wing blown off after he tried to cut Shinn in half, and he made a counterattack when Shinn drove the Excalibur through the Freedom. I don't remember any other attacks where he got damaged, and he was facing Shinn for all the attacks I listed.

Quote:
He also has to deal with the other MS attacking the ArchAngel and the Minerva.


Except that he wasn't actually shooting down missiles, disabling other MS, attacking the Minerva, etc. Sure, he made a motion to run away to the Archangel, but he didn't actively do anything to help them, aside from keeping Shinn out of the picture.

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All these would have helped Shinn, having Kira not paying enough attention to his battles.


Kira motions to run away to the Archangel early in the fight, then settles down and tries to take Shinn out. He only seriously starts running after he's lost a wing. He did pay attention to Shinn, at least enough attention to realize that he needs to leave if he wants to survive.

Quote:
Kira appears to be better when he's not being distracted, and performs better when battling the Destiny in Orb.


But, he didn't, really. He took out both boomerangs, which double as beam sabers, when he arrived and they were aimed for Cagalli. Then he takes out the Anti-Ship Sword while he's in SEED mode and Shinn isn't, to say nothing about the physics violated by the sword catch. After that, they trade beam rifle fire for a while before Shinn is ordered to return by Rey. Shinn, using a much more unweildy weapon in the Anti-Ship Sword is able to go toe to toe with Kira with both of them in normal mode to no effect. With both in SEED mode, Shinn and Kira trade rifle fire to no effect, despite the fact that Kira as five long range weapons to Shinn's two. Kira only gets any type of advantage via a sneak attack or being in SEED mode while Shinn isn't. With both facing each other in normal mode and both facing each other in SEED mode, Shinn and Kira fight to draws, despite Shinn already missing weapons.

Quote:
Other Factors: Once, Kira managed to destroy the Impulse head and arm. However, Shinn quickly recovers by replacing its body parts, and even using Silhouette packs to damage the Freedom. This gives it a huge advantage, having Freedom unable to repair body parts while Impulse is able to replace them several times.


He replaced equipment once, after that he calls out the Sword Silhouette pack to give him a beam boomerang and an Anti-Ship Sword. Also, Shinn studied for the fight. He knew the capabilities of his own MS, and fought in a way that took advantage of said capabilities, since he knew the Impulse was less agile and had less firepower than the Freedom. Also, as pointed out above, the replacement parts are vulnerable prior to docking with the Impulse. They seem to not even have PSA, and even vulcans are capable of destroying them. Shinn had to use his mech creatively in order to create an opening for him to successfully switch parts.
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RedZaku
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Phase 34-Kira VS Shinn? Is Shinn's win "fair"? Reply with quote

ACE-Xkira wrote:
I'm not sure if there's something similar to this before, but I guess I just want to know your opinion.
The factors that will determine the outcome of the battle:
Skill
Mobile Suit
Terrain
Emotions
Distraction
Other factors


>.> Distraction shouldn't even exist. Good soldiers/pilots do not get distracted.

Quote:
First off
Skill: Kira and Shinn's skills. This is controversial and debated. At this point of time, it should be obvious that Kira's skill is better.


Yeah, no. We debated this extensively in five other topics the genral consensious is Shinn and Athrun are both more capable then Kira.

Quote:
However, without having a formal battle with Shinn(before Phase.34) it is undecided.


Then Shinn dismantles Kira in 34, and later on during the battle of Orb in 42-43 Shinn with no close range weapons manages to hold off Kira when they're both in SEED mode despite the fact Shinn was fighting for a much longer period of time.

Quote:
It is not much difference, but one major advantage is that Impulse has the ability to switch Silhouette packs to deal with the situation.


I facepalmed. Impulse can't switch packs on Freedom. It HAS to at all times be equipped with the Force Silhouette because it need sto fly to stay on even footing with Freedom. Impulse could also only use the anit-ship sword and beam boomerang from the Sword pack because they both did not have to be directly attached to the MS to work. But Freedom is an all purpose MS with more powerful everything. How are you even trying to suggest Impulse is superior in any area?

Quote:
Terrain: Being in a mountainous terrain, Freedom would have a disadvantage, having less space to move around,


One problem. FREEDOM FLIES. Because Freedom flies it doesn't become hindered by the terrain is never touches even once. In fact because it flies mountainous terrain is huge advantage because he can use the Mountain's to play hide and seek with Shinn if he wanted.

Quote:
and as everyone knows, Kira always like to use the cool&fast moves to destroy opponents! This may affect Freedom's ability, having being knocked down, would meet with deadly crashes. However, Kira seems to be in control of the situation.


In control of the situation? Kira is very clearly frustrated everytime Shinn blocks his intial attempts to protect the AA, and he get's so annoyed he goes for a kill shot insanely early int he fight as illustrted with screen caps posted throughout this board.

Quote:
Emotions: Shinn's emotions was still sobbing over Stella, and taken over by increased hatred and vows to destroy the Freedom.


IF you're suggesting shinn is some kidn of berserker, he seemed pretty damn smart fighting Kira.

Quote:
Twisted Evil This certainly increases performance, and activates his Seed Mode when Kira doesn't.


Kira is in his SEED mode the entire fight. Kira cna activate his SEED at will. What Gundam were you watching?

Quote:
Distraction: Kira, being distracted over the ArchAngel


At the very end of the fight a second before Shinn impaled Freedom. Kira wasn't at all distracted before that and he was getting trounced.

Quote:
and the crew's safety, had several impacts. Kira did not notice several attacks and got damaged as a result of it.


Several? Aside from the anti-ship sword name ONE attack he didn't notice. All his damage came form moves that were utterly stuupid and easily countered. Freedom has the shoulder damage when Shinn banks a beam rifle shot off Impulses Shield which had nothing to do with the AA, and Kira has the wing blown off when he charges Impulse apparently tyring to cut it in half only for Shin not seperate Impulse and shoot fReedom int eh back while he's recgrouping.

Kira then loses Freedom's beam rifle while he's flying backwards and just firing shots at Shinn from long range with his shield up to guard. Shinn picks off his beam rifle at that time. The only time Kira is distracted during ANY of this is when he's impaled by the Anti-ship sword but Kira himself was already getting dominated well before that.

Quote:
He also has to deal with the other MS attacking the ArchAngel and the Minerva.


Did you even watch the episode? No MS is attacking the Minerva. Don't tell me you watched an AMV that had just a bunch of random Kira vs. Shinn moments tossed together and then thought that was the whole fight uncut?

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All these would have helped Shinn,


The problem is that none of these things actually happened liek you're telling them.

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having Kira not paying enough attention to his battles.


which would be Kira's own fault.

Quote:
Kira appears to be better when he's not being distracted, and performs better when battling the Destiny in Orb.


Better? Shinn with no close combat weapons is able to go SEE Dmode and match SEED mode Kira in the brand new Strike Freedom shot for shot and keep Kira at a distance and on the defensive without any close range weapons save for the Palma Foicina. Yep, that's "better" alright.

Quote:
Other Factors: Once, Kira managed to destroy the Impulse head and arm.


Because Shinn dodged a clear cockpit shot.

Quote:
However, Shinn quickly recovers by replacing its body parts, and even using Silhouette packs to damage the Freedom. This gives it a huge advantage, having Freedom unable to repair body parts while Impulse is able to replace them several times.


Several times? Impulse replaces them ONCE he used the damaged Silhouette on Freedom as well.

Quote:
This would be all of it. I am interested to hear your opinion here. Feel free to discuss and debate but no insulting and cursing or I will bring this topic down. Debate is a skill, it is a hobby, it is a game.


You've brought none of these things to the table. You completely mis-represented what actually happened in the fight in 34 to the point I'm actually thinking you just watched a Kira vs. Shinn AMV and thought that was enough information to debate with.
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ACE-Xkira
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:37 am    Post subject: Phase 34-Kira VS Shinn? Is Shinn's win "fair"?? Reply with quote

Quote:
>.> Distraction shouldn't even exist. Good soldiers/pilots do not get distracted.


Well, Kira is certainly caring for the crew of the Archangel, and having to deal with the Impulse at the same time, while Impulse is focusing squarely on the Freedom. Freedom tried to help the Archangel, and even spending some time on a message when he is being attacked. Apparently, he tried to buy time for the Archangel to escape, which was why he launched.

Quote:
Then Shinn dismantles Kira in 34, and later on during the battle of Orb in 42-43 Shinn with no close range weapons manages to hold off Kira when they're both in SEED mode despite the fact Shinn was fighting for a much longer period of time.


>.> During the battle of Orb, he still had an Anti-Ship sword when S.F. arrived and fired the railguns at boomerangs.
What do you mean "manages to hold off Kira"?? Kira inflicted damage on the Destiny, while Destiny cannot even inflict a scratch on the S.F.
So what if Shinn was fighting for a much longer period of time? When facing the Akatsuki, he did not even took a single damage. Plus, it runs on Nuclear energy, meaning its energy level does not deplete.

Quote:
I facepalmed. Impulse can't switch packs on Freedom. It HAS to at all times be equipped with the Force Silhouette because it need sto fly to stay on even footing with Freedom. Impulse could also only use the anit-ship sword and beam boomerang from the Sword pack because they both did not have to be directly attached to the MS to work. But Freedom is an all purpose MS with more powerful everything. How are you even trying to suggest Impulse is superior in any area?


How do you even suggest this?=.= It isn't proven that the Force Silhouette increases speed that matches the Freedom, Impulse can still move fairly quickly with other packs.
Yes, Freedom is an all purpose MS but that does not mean it is superior in everything. "all purpose" means weapons are divided, so not much is concentrated on a single area, although everything is good. Impulse can use the packs to increase performance in a certain area, mind you.

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Kira is in his SEED mode the entire fight. Kira cna activate his SEED at will. What Gundam were you watching?


I was watching Gundam Seed Destiny, Phase 34. >.>

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At the very end of the fight a second before Shinn impaled Freedom. Kira wasn't at all distracted before that and he was getting trounced.


Thats because he knew of the incoming attack and had to defend himself o r he will get ripped off.

Quote:
Several? Aside from the anti-ship sword name ONE attack he didn't notice. All his damage came form moves that were utterly stuupid and easily countered. Freedom has the shoulder damage when Shinn banks a beam rifle shot off Impulses Shield which had nothing to do with the AA, and Kira has the wing blown off when he charges Impulse apparently tyring to cut it in half only for Shin not seperate Impulse and shoot fReedom int eh back while he's recgrouping.

Kira then loses Freedom's beam rifle while he's flying backwards and just firing shots at Shinn from long range with his shield up to guard. Shinn picks off his beam rifle at that time. The only time Kira is distracted during ANY of this is when he's impaled by the Anti-ship sword but Kira himself was already getting dominated well before that.


You apparently rushed through this, having seen multiple spelling errors and making it hard to understand.
Actually, what I meant is Kira noticing the incoming attacks, but instead tries to help the Archangel and send a message in the middle of the battle.

Quote:
Did you even watch the episode? No MS is attacking the Minerva. Don't tell me you watched an AMV that had just a bunch of random Kira vs. Shinn moments tossed together and then thought that was the whole fight uncut?

What unimaginable and utter nonsense. If I didnt watch the episode I won't be here debating with you.

Quote:
Better? Shinn with no close combat weapons is able to go SEE Dmode and match SEED mode Kira in the brand new Strike Freedom shot for shot and keep Kira at a distance and on the defensive without any close range weapons save for the Palma Foicina. Yep, that's "better" alright.

Matching Kira does not means he is better than Kira.
Kira does not uses combat weapons much after he destroyed Destiny's Anti-Ship sword.
Kira managed to destroy his sword using the rail guns, and countered-attacked Destiny when Shinn was charging with his palm cannon.

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Because Shinn dodged a clear cockpit shot.

Its still a win right? Having destroyed a part.

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Several times? Impulse replaces them ONCE he used the damaged Silhouette on Freedom as well.

I'm just going to assume you have poor reading comprehension as you clearly don't understand what I'm saying. Look what I said:
Quote:
having Freedom unable to repair body parts while Impulse is able to replace them several times.


Notice the "able" I did not said "Impulse replace them several times"


Quote:
You've brought none of these things to the table. You completely mis-represented what actually happened in the fight in 34 to the point I'm actually thinking you just watched a Kira vs. Shinn AMV and thought that was enough information to debate with.

Another one. I had watched Phase34 and the Special Edition series as well. If you continue to make such assumptions, then I would assume you are a 12year-old who is stupid beyond words.
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Weltall8000
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Because Freedom flies it doesn't become hindered by the terrain is never touches even once.


Objection! Shinn knocked Freedom down to the ground, leaving Freedom skidding/rolling down the mountain side! But yeah. Laughing

Quote:
Well, Kira is certainly caring for the crew of the Archangel, and having to deal with the Impulse at the same time, while Impulse is focusing squarely on the Freedom. Freedom tried to help the Archangel, and even spending some time on a message when he is being attacked. Apparently, he tried to buy time for the Archangel to escape, which was why he launched.


And an effective way to keep them out of danger, would be to win his fight quickly and then defend them. Which he attempts to do, however Shinn poses more of an obstacle than that.

You seem to confuse Kira's focusing on Impulse, so that he can get to AA after defeating Impulse, with not paying any attention to Impulse.

When he launched he was fighting the forces that were attacking AA, not simply buying time. He was participating in breaking AA through ZAFT's net. Then Impulse came along and posed a more immediate problem, which he had to deal with before he could help AA. If not, either he gets killed and can't help AA, or Impulse attacks AA and leaves nothing for Kira to defend.

Quote:
>.> During the battle of Orb, he still had an Anti-Ship sword when S.F. arrived and fired the railguns at boomerangs.
What do you mean "manages to hold off Kira"?? Kira inflicted damage on the Destiny, while Destiny cannot even inflict a scratch on the S.F.
So what if Shinn was fighting for a much longer period of time? When facing the Akatsuki, he did not even took a single damage. Plus, it runs on Nuclear energy, meaning its energy level does not deplete.


The boomerangs were shot when Kira jumped him, while Destiny was engaging Akatsuki.

Then, the Arondight Anti Ship Sword, was ripped when Kira was in Seed mode and Shinn wasn't.

After all of this, Shinn ends up fighting SF/Kira to a stalemate, despite not having two of his major weapon systems. Also bearing in mind, SF is particularly adept at ranged combat.

If you want to complain about Kira having so much to deal with in 34, like exhaustion or focusing on something else, why doesn't Shinn get the same treatment here? Regardless, Shinn gets jumped and rather than getting roflstomped, fights SF to a draw, despite SF having the initiative at the outset.

Quote:
How do you even suggest this?=.= It isn't proven that the Force Silhouette increases speed that matches the Freedom, Impulse can still move fairly quickly with other packs.
Yes, Freedom is an all purpose MS but that does not mean it is superior in everything. "all purpose" means weapons are divided, so not much is concentrated on a single area, although everything is good. Impulse can use the packs to increase performance in a certain area, mind you.


...You do realize that Force Silhouette is what enables Impulse to fly...right? If it doesn't have this, it cannot have an aerial battle with Freedom.

No, it doesn't, in fact, all anyone is saying is that Impulse needs to have Force Silhouette to even be in the same league as Freedom in terms of maneuverability.

Blast Silhouette can hover over water, but is not shown with any kind of high maneuverability in the air...or at all.

Sword Silhouette is shown to have Impulse leap frogging from one boat to the other, but not any kind of high maneuverability flight in Earth's gravity.

In fact, here's a description of Force Silhouette:

Quote:
The ZGMF-X56S/α Force Impulse Gundam is the ZAFT equivalent to the Earth Alliance's GAT-X105+AQM/E-X01 Aile Strike Gundam. The Force Silhouette pack provides the Impulse Gundam with increased mobility in space, as well as atmospheric flight on Earth. The Force Silhouette pack is stored on the Minerva's dedicated hangar for the Impulse Gundam and is sent out onto the field via a computer-controlled flyer craft. The flyer delivers the pack to the Impulse Gundam and automatically returns to the Minerva. The Force Silhouette pack docks with the Impulse Gundam via a laser lock. The only additional armament carried by the Force Silhouette pack is a pair of beam sabers.


Read: It enables Impulse to fly and increases its mobility. Can you point out any of the other packs allowing Impulse any feats of mobility comparable to Force Impulse's?

And if you want to argue the semantics of Freedom being "all purpose" Keep in mind, Impulse is also an all purpose MS, however, it requires the silhouette packs to achieve that, and can't do it all simultaneously...like Freedom can and does.

Freedom out maneuvers Force Impulse and packs as much if not more and better weaponry than Blast Impulse, as well as bears two beam sabers. The only area in which Freedom might be less than Impulse would be with melee vs Sword Impulse, as it has no boomerang and its beam sabers are shorter than the Excaliburs. Then again, it also has near limitless energy, can fly all the while, and can fire more weapons than Sword Impulse, all without the use of its hands, which Sword Impulse needs to even wield its weaponry. The added speed alone of Freedom makes it very deadly in melee, while Sword Impulse sacrifices its speed for the weaponry.

Shinn cleverly utilized Sword Impulse's weaponry, while using Force Impulse to shoot down Freedom, in an all out attack, after having Freedom on the run.

Quote:

I was watching Gundam Seed Destiny, Phase 34. >.>


Fantastic! Now look at Kira's eyes and realize that you're wrong and he's in Seed mode the entire battle.

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Thats because he knew of the incoming attack and had to defend himself o r he will get ripped off.


...days later, he awakens to find himself in the infirmary. Not to mention he had no business surviving in the first place, hallelujah for plot shielding! But needless to say, his defense wasn't so great. Which kind of was the point, he was so far on the defensive and he couldn't muster a defense to keep him in the fight. Shinn out piloted him.

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You apparently rushed through this, having seen multiple spelling errors and making it hard to understand.
Actually, what I meant is Kira noticing the incoming attacks, but instead tries to help the Archangel and send a message in the middle of the battle.


And by that same token, you apparently rushed through this, as you clearly haven't given any reasonable thought to what transpired in the episode. You want to complain about spelling and punctuation errors, rather than face the issues. Let's not change the subject here.

The message was much earlier in the battle and not when he was getting manhandled by Shinn yet. So, what's your point? We all know he wanted to defend AA, no one is arguing that he didn't want AA to escape intact.
Quote:

What unimaginable and utter nonsense. If I didnt watch the episode I won't be here debating with you.


Well, if you want to complain about spelling errors, your poor use of punctuation made initial the sentence somewhat confusing. I understand that you meant he had to deal with MS attacking AA, in addition to dealing with Minerva. Though he never actually did anything at all to Minerva in this battle, nor did he even apparently attempt to.

Quote:
Matching Kira does not means he is better than Kira.
Kira does not uses combat weapons much after he destroyed Destiny's Anti-Ship sword.
Kira managed to destroy his sword using the rail guns, and countered-attacked Destiny when Shinn was charging with his palm cannon.


Kind of like your arguing that Shinn beating the piss out of Kira in 34 doesn't make Shinn better than Kira?

So, you say Destiny should have fought differently, but then defend SF not sealing the deal, by Kira not using weapons effectively to neutralize Destiny? Double standard much?

No, he ripped the sword out of Destiny's hands with shields pincering the metal part of the blade (though as it was animated, his hands were also on the blade), then shot Destiny in the chest with rail guns to aid in ripping it from his grip. SF was not shown destroying the sword, or even penetrating Destiny's Phase Shift armor to significantly damage it in any way.

Counterattack being in Phase 43, when Kira kicks Destiny, posts up for a shot, then gets knocked off balance by Legend? Yeah, that worked out great for him. >.>

Quote:

Its still a win right? Having destroyed a part.


No, seeing as it didn't stop Shinn and seconds later, Kira was eating the damaged part which sent him hurtling into the ground below, which ended up with Shinn replacing the damaged parts, and then taking it to Kira with a major offensive the rest of the fight, that ended in Kira's MS being destroyed, and him slipping into a coma which by all rights he should have died from.

Quote:
I'm just going to assume you have poor reading comprehension as you clearly don't understand what I'm saying. Look what I said:


And you are citing an ability that wasn't used several times. You're trying to misrepresent this with your wording as though Shinn was spamming parts ala Victory Gundam or something. Could it have been? Probably, so that much more opportunities for Shinn to have laid the smackdown on Kira in, tipping this even more in favor of Shinn as he had a contingency plan that he didn't even need to fully utilize.

Quote:

Notice the "able" I did not said "Impulse replace them several times"


But sweet if you want to argue semantics for a minor victory of splitting hairs over your own wording, which still changes nothing in the grand scope of the overarching debate.

He has bad reading comprehension pertaining to the minutia of the wording of your posts, and you have a horrible argument. Fair trade right?

Quote:
Another one. I had watched Phase34 and the Special Edition series as well. If you continue to make such assumptions, then I would assume you are a 12year-old who is stupid beyond words.


Wow, that's awesome, was that really necessary? Toss an ad hominem in there just because he brings up a valid point, you are misrepresenting the events in the series.
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RedZaku
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Phase 34-Kira VS Shinn? Is Shinn's win "fair"? Reply with quote

ACE-Xkira wrote:
Well, Kira is certainly caring for the crew of the Archangel,


In this case protecting the AA crew = defeating Shinn as quickly as possible so he can deal with the other threats to the ship. The two go hand in hand there is no reason or excuse for any kind of hesitation.

Quote:
>.> During the battle of Orb, he still had an Anti-Ship sword when S.F. arrived and fired the railguns at boomerangs.


Shinn lost both Boomerangs in mid-flight when Kira shot them like Clay Pigeons after he'd thrown them at Akatsuki. Kira then violated some fundamental lays of physics to block the anti-ship sword which reduced Shinn's close range weapons to near zero save the Palma Fiocina. And even with this situation Shinn not only holds his own but keeps Kira on the defensive.

Quote:
What do you mean "manages to hold off Kira"?? Kira inflicted damage on the Destiny,


Pulling the sword from Destiny's hand is not inflicting damage on Destiny. Nor is shooting railguns point blank in PS armor which blocks the affect of physical weapons.

Quote:
while Destiny cannot even inflict a scratch on the S.F.


You seem to not get Shinn has no close combat weapons and he is by far a much better close combat fighter then a range fighter, yet with range weapons only at his disposal he can fend Kira off and even have Kira on the defensive until Rey recalls him.

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How do you even suggest this?=.= It isn't proven that the Force Silhouette increases speed that matches the Freedom,


It's not. Anywhere at all. Show, model kits, or tech manuals it's stated NO WHERE that the Force Silhouettes speed matches that of Freedom.

Quote:
Impulse can still move fairly quickly with other packs.


Blast Impulse can hover..... the most the sword Silhouette ever did was leap around from the bow of a battleship to the next. And Blast Impulse's hovering wasn't exactly speedy which is why Kira seemed a bit shocked when Shinn actually managed to dodge an attack from Freedom with it. Plus Impulse can not fly without the Force Silhouette, so it can't even have an aerial battle with Freedom without it.

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Yes, Freedom is an all purpose MS but that does not mean it is superior in everything.


Except we know it is because it's nuclear power source allowed for it's weaponry, armor, and engines to be pushed and stretched to their maximum thanks to the infinite power source. Freedom is stated to be superior to the Impulse flat out in episode 33, and Freedom is stated multiple times to be better then pretty much every current Gen MS.

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I was watching Gundam Seed Destiny, Phase 34. >.>


I sort of have my doubts when you're making claims about Shinn being in SEED mode as some kind of unfair advantage over Kira despite the fact Kira was also in SEED mode.

Quote:
Thats because he knew of the incoming attack and had to defend himself o r he will get ripped off.


He was ripped off anyway. Kira was utterly crushed in that fight.

Quote:
You apparently rushed through this, having seen multiple spelling errors and making it hard to understand.


Oh sweet irony.

Quote:
Actually, what I meant is Kira noticing the incoming attacks, but instead tries to help the Archangel and send a message in the middle of the battle.


Except he never tried to help the AA when those attacks were sent his way. He was completely involved in the fight with Shinn at those points. He doesn't even try to run from the fight until it's clear he's not going to beat Shinn.

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What unimaginable and utter nonsense. If I didnt watch the episode I won't be here debating with you.


Then why did you say "He also has to deal with the other MS attacking the ArchAngel and the Minerva." Suffice to say the structure of that sentence implies there are MS attacking the Minerva as well and Kira is trying to deal with them along with the units attacking the AA, which never even took place in episode 34.

Quote:
Matching Kira does not means he is better than Kira.


No, but matching Kira in an area Kira is dominant at, long range, and successfully keeping Kira on the defensive with no close combat weapons to ramp up the attack when Kira has several major advantages in this fight is.

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Kira does not uses combat weapons much after he destroyed Destiny's Anti-Ship sword.


Because Shinn keeps Kira at long ranges, he doesn't allow Kira to exploit his serious advantage which is incredible piloting by Shinn.

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Kira managed to destroy his sword using the rail guns, and countered-attacked Destiny when Shinn was charging with his palm cannon.


Again, have you watched the episodes being referenced? Kira pulled the anti-ship sword out of Destiny's hands after performing a physics braking sword catch. The Railguns only come after and they're fired directly at Shinn's cockpit to knock Destiny back. They cause absolutely no damage. The Palma Foicina doesn't even come into play until Rey and Shinn vs. Kira in 43.

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Its still a win right? Having destroyed a part.


No, for the simple fact the damage doesn't remove Impulse from the fight. It'd be a victory if Impulse couldn't continue to battle after sustaining that damage, but it's simply not the case.

Quote:
I'm just going to assume you have poor reading comprehension as you clearly don't understand what I'm saying. Look what I said:
Quote:
having Freedom unable to repair body parts while Impulse is able to replace them several times.



You seem to have completely missed the point of what I'm saying. The implication is that it's irrelevant how many times Impulse could theoretically switch parts. Kira is only able to damage Impulse once throughout the course of the battle.

Quote:

Notice the "able" I did not said "Impulse replace them several times"


Note, you completely missed the point of what I was saying. I was saying it's irrelevant how many times Impulse is able to replace it's parts if Kira can only damage Impulse one time in the entire fight.

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Another one. I had watched Phase34 and the Special Edition series as well.


Which is what I find hard to believe because you're MISREPRESENTING the content of the fights.

Quote:
If you continue to make such assumptions, then I would assume you are a 12year-old who is stupid beyond words.


Look, I appreciate the Ad Hominem, it means you can't address the point I made about you misrepresenting the contents of the fights being discussed so you're making a personal attack against me.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not gonna say Shinn's victory was fair or not. I say this because all I saw was that Shinn was out for blood. When first started watching Gundam SEED Destiny and saw his family getting killed during the fighting, I felt sorry for him. But as the show progressed and I saw that he began to develop a one track mind and allowed Rey to slowly influnce his decision making abilities, I began to hate Shinn. I think Shinn should've approached Kira and asked him why he killed Stella. I know for certain Kira was also trying to keep from killing her. The only reason why Kira killed Stella by accident was that Terminal didn't give the Archangel any Intel on the Destroy. If Terminal had given the Archangel crew some Intel on the Destroy, Kira would've been able to find a way to save Stella and not incur Shinn's wrath and lust for blood.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TsunamiDagger105 wrote:
I'm not gonna say Shinn's victory was fair or not. I say this because all I saw was that Shinn was out for blood.


Shinn is a soldier. Soldiers don't disarm people they kill them. That's war. Also, don't think Kira did anyone any favors when in the last two episodes of SEED you see him use a METEOR unit to cut a battleship in half. Kira goes out for blood too, he doesn't ever truly stick to his no killing policy and even when he does there are so many horrible fates that can accompany being disabled in the middle of a major battlefield, that he's really just adding to the suffering in a lot of cases.


Quote:
When first started watching Gundam SEED Destiny and saw his family getting killed during the fighting, I felt sorry for him. But as the show progressed and I saw that he began to develop a one track mind and allowed Rey to slowly influnce his decision making abilities,


One track mind? Ignoring Athrun's order to regroup in order to liberate an EA forced Labour camp is definitely a one track mind. Obviously so is, rescuing Stella when she was about to die, despite her being an enemy, was a very one track minded approach to things. If Shinn had a one track mind he wouldn't have been so hesitant to finish off Athrun, and he wouldn't have been swayed in any direction by Athrun's words in the final battle. You seem to be confusing following orders based on what he knows to be true to be the same as mindless servitude, which of course makes me facepalm.

Quote:
I began to hate Shinn.


So you're not really objective at all when discussing this topic? Well that's super.

Quote:
I think Shinn should've approached Kira and asked him why he killed Stella.


So, hypothetically here, if someone murdered someone close to you right in front of your eyes, someone you cared deeply for, you'd ASK that person why he did it rather then go out for some revenge? Particularly when this same person was involved in fighting that resulted in the death of your entire family? Yeah, forgive me if I don't quite think you'd ask them why they did it.

Quote:
I know for certain Kira was also trying to keep from killing her.


No, it was clear he was trying to kill her because if she fired that weapon the rest of Berlin was going up in smoke. Kira often kills people when left with little other option, see Rau Le Crueset, his fight with Shinn in 34, and his attempt to shoot Durandal in cold blood in episode 50. There was no doubt Kira was going for the kill shot this time because he'd repeatedly failed miserably at trying to disable any and all weapons on the Destroy Gundam.

Quote:

The only reason why Kira killed Stella by accident was that Terminal didn't give the Archangel any Intel on the Destroy.


Kira takes a shot at a charging particle canon situated directly above the cockpit of the Destroy that has a big hole in it that Kira saw, and knew about and fires anyway. He knew he was going to kill Stella, there is no question about that. Unless Kira is brain damaged there is no way he didn't know what the outcome would have been. The other issue with this argument is that without any technical specs on Destroy Gundam, Shinn, within the first minute on the scene is able to damage the Destroy Gundam, something Kira couldn't do in 15-20 minutes.

Quote:
If Terminal had given the Archangel crew some Intel on the Destroy, Kira would've been able to find a way to save Stella and not incur Shinn's wrath and lust for blood.


....Yeah Shinn lusts for blood. Precisely why he spends all of Destiny trying to END war. A bit of a contradiction in terms there Tsunami.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm not gonna say Shinn's victory was fair or not. I say this because all I saw was that Shinn was out for blood.


So, hypothetically speaking here, since Kira was out for blood against Rau, should that fight be indecisive as well?

Quote:
When first started watching Gundam SEED Destiny and saw his family getting killed during the fighting, I felt sorry for him. But as the show progressed and I saw that he began to develop a one track mind and allowed Rey to slowly influnce his decision making abilities, I began to hate Shinn.


He didn't have a one track mind, nor did Rey manipulate him. I really have a problem with people claiming that Shinn was a mindless tool for listening to his best friend in the whole world, a person who had never given him any reason to doubt him, while those same people love Athrun and Kira as best friends when Athrun mindlessly follows Kira.

Quote:
I think Shinn should've approached Kira and asked him why he killed Stella.


Kira has, by this point

1.) Shot out the Tannheuser, killing Minerva personnel, crippling the Minerva's defenses and indirectly contributing to Heine's death.

2.) Shot down several ZAFT MS while helping Lacus steal a shuttle.

3.) Shredded the Savior, further crippling the Minerva's defenses, then shooting the arm off of Rey's ZAKU.

4.) Kept the battle at Berlin going twice after everyone else had stopped, finally culminating in the death of Stellar.

Gee, when the guy has blatantly attacked your side 3 times, killed somebody you cared about, and protects the person you hate most in the world (Cagalli), it's kind of hard to argue that you should "sit down and talk things out".

Quote:
I know for certain Kira was also trying to keep from killing her.


Railguns to the open cockpit after Neo contacted Shinn and nobody was fighting anymore. That is most definitely not "trying to keep from killing her".

Quote:
The only reason why Kira killed Stella by accident was that Terminal didn't give the Archangel any Intel on the Destroy.


It wasn't an accident, Kira was blatantly going after her to end the Destroy once and for all.

Quote:
If Terminal had given the Archangel crew some Intel on the Destroy, Kira would've been able to find a way to save Stella and not incur Shinn's wrath and lust for blood.


Too late. Not only had Kira already pissed Shinn off by attacking his side 3 times and protecting the person that Shinn hates most in the world, orders are orders, and orders dictated that Freedom be left in pieces at the bottom of the sea.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess you guys are right but shouldn't Kira should've kept his distance and let Shinn handle the situtaion. Shinn did get Stella to stop attacking Berlin. But I think Shinn should've told Kira to stay back and let him handle the situtation. Kira might've asked why, but don't you guys think Kira would've understood and just backed off?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, I'm not 100% clear on this one, but it seems to me like when Shinn is talking to Stella, their voices are heard when they cut to Kira in his cockpit while he's watching the situation unfold. So, I'm torn between whether Kira did in fact hear the conversation or not.

If he did, shame on him.

If he didn't, I still don't think it makes a whole lot of sense for him to creep toward them. I'd personally have kept my distance and been ready to shoot at Destroy's cockpit while I assessed the situation.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a friend of mine who used to be in the army said, "A fair fight is any one that I win."

Warfare is about getting as many advantages for your side as you can since you want to survive and win.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shinn's win totally isn't fair.
First if we're talking tech wise, the Impulse was built several years after the Freedom. with that they would've been improving continuously and creating better more powerful mobile suits, Look at the Zaku compared to the Ginn for example. Not to mention the Impulse had the Deterion beam to replenish its power if Shinn ever ran out in the middle of a fight. While if the Freedom ran out of power Kira would simply have to take it. Shinn Also had the Luxury of being able to swap his Sillouette's when ever he felt like it. Granted the freedom had the Hymat system.

Terain wise I think it was pretty even since both had wings and it was such a narrow space.

Emotion wise Incredibly unfair for Kira. Shinn was hell bent on killing Kira and destroying the Freedom for destroying the destroy and saving all those people. Kira was simply trying to allow the ArchAngel to get out to sea and away from the Minerva.

Skill wise Kira had a total; advatange being the Ultimate coordinator.

Then Off just their fighting styles Kira was simply trying to defend not trying to beat shinn so Shinn had the clear advantage that aspect of the fight. And Not to mention he had to use the giant sword for the Sword sillouette to destroy the freedom.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lockon (Neil) wrote:
Shinn's win totally isn't fair.


Shinn is at a significant disadvantage in his episode 34 encounter with Kira just from a technological standpoint. Freedom is a much better MS then Impulse and that's stated IN THE SHOW.

Quote:
First if we're talking tech wise, the Impulse was built several years after the Freedom.


Impulse was also built with serious restrictions on it's capabilities thanks to the Junius Treaty which prevented things like the use of N-Jammer Cancellors, and Nuclear reactors which significantly boost the ability of any Mobile Suit they're equipped to. I'll also point out in episode 33 when Shinn is prepping for a showdown with Freedom, it's stated Impulse is no where near on par with Freedom Gundam.

Quote:
with that they would've been improving continuously and creating better more powerful mobile suits, Look at the Zaku compared to the Ginn for example.


The massive problem with your logic, and the most glaringly obvious flaw is that you're acting like the Freedom was a GiNN.. The Freedom was a one off prototype mobile suit which in the grand tradition of Gundam is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS! vastly superior to the units designed based on it later on that are intended for mass production. But again THE SHOW STATES FREEDOM > IMPULSE.

Quote:
Not to mention the Impulse had the Deterion beam to replenish its power if Shinn ever ran out in the middle of a fight.


The weapons output on Impulse were still designed with limits because there was still the chance it could not replenish it's power..... The Freedom had no such concerns for it's weapon systems as it would NEVER run out of power. EVER.

Quote:
While if the Freedom ran out of power Kira would simply have to take it.


The Freedom can't run out of power. It's powered by a Nuclear Reactor.......

Quote:
Shinn Also had the Luxury of being able to swap his Silhouette's when ever he felt like it. Granted the freedom had the Hymat system.


Except he couldn't in that fight because the Freedom could fly. If Shinn swapped to any pack but the Force Pack he'd be putting himself at a significant disadvantage, because not only would he lose his flight abilities but a significant portion of Impulses mobility as well. Freedom, because of it's flight capabilities alone allows Kira to dictate the terms of the battle.

Quote:
Terain wise I think it was pretty even since both had wings and it was such a narrow space.


They were fighting in the middle of the sky for the vast majority of the fight. In fact they only hit the ground once, or fly near it once during the entire fight and it was when Shinn knocked Freedom into the mountain slope.

Quote:
Emotion wise Incredibly unfair for Kira.


This is Kira's problem. If he can't control himself in a fight that's Kira's fault. Shinn certainly isn't cheating because of Kira's inability to maintain focus.

Quote:
Shinn was hell bent on killing Kira and destroying the Freedom for destroying the destroy and saving all those people.


Bzzt. He was hell bent on killing Kira because Kira had, in just the span of a few months. Killed Heine by distracting him in a fight. Killed multiple members of the Minerva's crew when he shot the charging Tannhauser and because when he stopped the Destroy Gundam, he just happened to kill Stella. Nevermind that Kira only had to destroy the the Destroy Gundam because he'd gotten Stella scared and panicky after Shinn had already calmed her down....

Quote:
Kira was simply trying to allow the ArchAngel to get out to sea and away from the Minerva.


And he fails miserably..... This is not an excuse.

Quote:
Skill wise Kira had a total; advatange being the Ultimate coordinator.


Being the Ultimate Coordinator has nothing to do with making him a good pilot. The entire point of the Ultimate Coordinator Project was to make a child Coordinator who was born exactly as his genes were mapped out ahead of time. You'll remember as part of the filler story for CE variations on Coordinators genetic code would occur as a result of gestating in the mothers womb. Kira is the Ultimate Coordinator because he had no such Genetic Variations to his code. Not because he's innately superior to other Coordinators.

Quote:
Then Off just their fighting styles Kira was simply trying to defend not trying to beat shinn so Shinn had the clear advantage that aspect of the fight.


Screen caps have been taken, footage has been analyzed, Kira goes to for kill shots on Shinn at least twice and possibly as many as three times throughout the course of the fight. Arguing Kira isn't out at first to kill Shinn is fine, but this attitude clearly shifts as the fight drags on and Kira himself becomes much more desperate.

Quote:
And Not to mention he had to use the giant sword for the Sword sillouette to destroy the freedom.


Considering all the fire power Kira tots into battle without the need for optional equipment packs I'm going to call that a wash.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lockon (Neil) wrote:
Shinn's win totally isn't fair.


There's no such thing as "fair" in combat. You might was well argue that most of Kira's wins weren't "fair", since most of his opponents did not have Gundams.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fiver wrote:
Lockon (Neil) wrote:
Shinn's win totally isn't fair.


There's no such thing as "fair" in combat. You might was well argue that most of Kira's wins weren't "fair", since most of his opponents did not have Gundams.

True I have to agree with you there.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fiver wrote:
Lockon (Neil) wrote:
Shinn's win totally isn't fair.


There's no such thing as "fair" in combat. You might was well argue that most of Kira's wins weren't "fair", since most of his opponents did not have Gundams.


I can't just agree with this. Even though Kira has a Gundam, then tell me did he just fight only one opponent? During the battles, he fought more than battalions of mobile suits. Imagine a single Special Force person of United States fighting ten Philippine Marines, would you call that unfair? It should be equal since a Special Force is trained to kill 5 marines in less than 30 seconds. and you said "most"... so there are also Gundams which Kira fought. so a few gundams plus a few non-gundam units equals Kira's Freedom. So it would likely be fair to his opponents. Quantites (the number of units) and the Quality of the Gundam would be fair.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KnightLoyale wrote:
I can't just agree with this. Even though Kira has a Gundam, then tell me did he just fight only one opponent?


So your argument is it's fair because even though Kira has a much superior MS, and even though that MS can lock, fire, and hit multiple targets with ease, it's even because of the shear volume of MS Kira fights?


Quote:
During the battles, he fought more than battalions of mobile suits.


Battalions? Battalions? Seriously a Battalion would be anywhere from 300-1300 MS. Kira has NEVER EVER EVER fought 300-1300 MS ever in a battle. Particularly that many by himself. Could he have sortied with multiple battalions fighting? Yes, he's involved in some very big battles, but those MS were fighting each other, along with other named Characters on both sides, and his.

Quote:
Imagine a single Special Force person of United States fighting ten Philippine Marines, would you call that unfair?


Yes.

Quote:
It should be equal since a Special Force is trained to kill 5 marines in less than 30 seconds. and you said "most"...


>.> So...it's fair because it might take him a full minute to kill all of them?


Quote:
so there are also Gundams which Kira fought.


All of whom were still inferior to Freedom except for say Providence, in the original, and Destiny, Legend, and Justice if you talk about Strike Freedom in Destiny.

Quote:

so a few gundams plus a few non-gundam units equals Kira's Freedom.


Umm wait what? What the hell are you talking about? Kira has never fought Gundam MS and none Gundam MS at the same time. The most is non0Gundam's before his Gundam fight. And then after. The only time he ever faced un-even numbers with Gundam's on the field were against the Druggies, and they were kicking his ass.

Quote:
So it would likely be fair to his opponents. Quantites (the number of units) and the Quality of the Gundam would be fair.


No, not really. War=/= Fair.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

my answer for this question is that Yes. It was a fair victory. Its common tactics to use any measures to weaken the enemy and make the fight favourable. They depict that battle as the ideal war situation in my mind. Military tactics are great Smile

I would totally have done the same thing as shin if i were in his situation. I would have done the same even if i werent angry at my enemy.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"During the battles, he fought more than battalions of mobile suits."

I was referring to the phase Kira fought in the final battle against the Z.A.F.T. in SEED Destiny. And "battalions"is a figure of speech, an average person who does not search for the numbers in military units would think that "battalion" means more than 50 mobile suits. And I was referring to the battles from SEED to Destiny. I didn't say that Kira is fighting them in a single battle. For example, Let the number of battles Gundam SEED where Kira is involved ranges to ten battles. And Within those battles, he defeated 150 Mobile Suits. (not EACH battles, each 10 battles). And he fought another 150 Mobile Suits in Destiny, (again not EACH battle, but the battles throughout the series of Gundam Destiny.) So in military view, 150 plus 150 would make 300, your battalion.

"Imagine a single Special Force person of United States fighting ten Philippine Marines, would you call that unfair?"

Which country are you from? I'm from Philippines and I'm saying that a single US Special Force is a way better than a Philippine Marines. Say in hi-tech equipments of US Special Force be compared to that of the Philippine Marines, each unit of a US Special force equips with hi-tech blue-tooth communication device while the Philippine Marines only use radio. Sniper rifles of the Special Forces are equipped with infrared and heat-seeking devices, which detects heat sources inside a building, which a Special Force sniper could shoot a person without even looking at him directly in the scope but by heat source only. While that of a Philippine Marine, they do not have such devices attached to their weapons, maybe only an accurate scope used in hunting animals, because the Philippine Government doesn't want to give a big budget for the National Defense. By the way, did you watch the news about the Hostage taking in Quirino Grandstand in Manila? The PNP (Philippine National Police) Special Action Force itself had not used any special equipments for destroying the Bus' door or the windows for them to make the shock and awe. Though they did use some in the demo a few days after the incident.

I mean that it's just like a Philippine Marine being compared to a US Special Force.


RedZaku wrote:
So...it's fair because it might take him a full minute to kill all of them?


Of course. Kira killed a platoon of ZAFT Special Force sent to assassinate Lacus Clyne, though we still do not have evidence if Chairman Dullindal was the one who sent them. And it maybe took Kira a minute or two to kill the Special Force

RedZaku wrote:
No, not really. War=/= Fair.


Not really also. Not always. Remember when Japan bombed the Pearl Harbor without prior warning? Americans think that it's unfair. And they're right. 5 years later, Hiroshima and Nagasaki had mushroom-like clouds a few seconds or minutes after two atomic bombs were dropped... without prior warning from US, though US wanted Japan to surrender, they never warned Japan that US will drop atom bombs if they had not surrender. So it's fair.

I'm talking about real life, and it could happen in SEED and Destiny. For example, EAF sent nuclear missiles and caused the Bloody Valentines. ZAFT thought that's it's unfair. And they're correct. After a few years, tsunamis and falling meteors from the fragments of Junius Seven were seen on Earth, though they were caused by Zala faction.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KnightLoyale wrote:
I was referring to the phase Kira fought in the final battle against the Z.A.F.T. in SEED Destiny.


Kira is still not fighting a Battalion of MS. You're implying Kira faced that many MS on his own. The reality of the situation is Kira is shown fighting no where near that number of MS in the final two episodes, nor was he fighting that many single handedly as is the implication with your statement.

Quote:
And "battalions"is a figure of speech, an average person who does not search for the numbers in military units would think that "battalion" means more than 50 mobile suits.


No, the average person is going to envision something on the scale of 1,000+ MS because Battalion even for those with no military knowledge know it is a huge army group, it's basic knowledge. IF you meant a lot say a lot, but don't make up things like Battalion of troops.

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And I was referring to the battles from SEED to Destiny. I didn't say that Kira is fighting them in a single battle.


Then you need to phrase your responses better because the phrasing of your responses indicates that's precisely what you were suggesting.

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For example, Let the number of battles Gundam SEED where Kira is involved ranges to ten battles. And Within those battles, he defeated 150 Mobile Suits. (not EACH battles, each 10 battles).


Great, so more fictional numbers that have no verification and are just being made up by you? Kira never shot down 150 mobile suits in any single battle he fought in let alone 150 each in the course of ten battles.... Oh wait not in each, your phrasing is again incorrect if that's what you mean. And 150 is still overshooting the number of Grunts Kira has likely taken down in Destiny.

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And he fought another 150 Mobile Suits in Destiny, (again not EACH battle, but the battles throughout the series of Gundam Destiny.) So in military view, 150 plus 150 would make 300, your battalion.


Except 150 is damn generous for his total in SEED Destiny given the amount of fighting he actually does, and I feel I should point out, your argument is still void. Kira is in an MS specifically designed to spam multiple targets. HE has a significant advantage over those he fights in machine alone.

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Say in hi-tech equipments of US Special Force be compared to that of the Philippine Marines, each unit of a US Special force equips with hi-tech blue-tooth communication device while the Philippine Marines only use radio. Sniper rifles of the Special Forces are equipped with infrared and heat-seeking devices, which detects heat sources inside a building,


I don't know who gave you the misconceptions about the workings of Infra-red, but it is not heat seeking, nor is it capable of tracking body heat through material like brick and mortar. It's not Call of Duty, a helicopter can't see you through the roof of a building if the roof is there. Technologically inaccuracies aside. You seem to be under the impression all that tech and the fact it's only 1 man isn't an advantage.... it's a significant advantage which is why he'd win so easily. You're arguing against your own point it's not suddenly even, just because he's fighting more people if those people are less equipped and not as well trained.

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which a Special Force sniper could shoot a person without even looking at him directly in the scope but by heat source only.


Read my lips. There is no such thing as an auto-aiming sniper rifle, and who ever told you there was lied.

Quote:

I mean that it's just like a Philippine Marine being compared to a US Special Force.


You don't get it do you? I was agreeing the US Spec Op's member would easily win in a such a fight. I was mocking the notion it would be fair simply because there were more Marines, which is the argument you are trying to make. That it's an even fight because what they lack in training, and equipment is made up for in number.s Sadly if your numbers all suck it's still an unfair fight, and the entire purpose of military technology is to make the fight even more one-sided and unfair.

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Of course.


Than that is the most absurd argument I've ever seen.

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Kira killed a platoon of ZAFT Special Force sent to assassinate Lacus Clyne
,

Umm....no. God no. Kira didn't kill anyone. It was Murrue and Andy that did all the anti-troop combat. Also no evidence they were from ZAFT except for Andy proclaiming they were. Kira gave them a tough time in Freedom, a vastly superior MS and they then killed themselves using a self detonation device in their MS. Factual Accuracy, your post lacks any.

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though we still do not have evidence if Chairman Dullindal was the one who sent them. And it maybe took Kira a minute or two to kill the Special Force


Kira didn't kill anyone that entire episode.

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Not really also. Not always.


Yes Really, Yes Always.

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Remember when Japan bombed the Pearl Harbor without prior warning?


A surprise attack is not an unfair advantage for the person doing the attack?

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Americans think that it's unfair. And they're right. 5 years later, Hiroshima and Nagasaki had mushroom-like clouds a few seconds or minutes after two atomic bombs were dropped... without prior warning from US,


Without prior warning? Again No. Just no. The US had been dropping leaf-lets on Tokyo leading up to the bombing warning Japan the US would unleash a secret weapon if it did not immediately and unconditionally surrender.

Quote:
though US wanted Japan to surrender, they never warned Japan that US will drop atom bombs if they had not surrender. So it's fair.


I want to face-palm... It's not suddenly all fair and right just because the US did something horrible to japan back. You're arguing Revenge makes everything OK and fair again. That's an awful, just godawful argument to make.

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I'm talking about real life, and it could happen in SEED and Destiny.


Than you sir have a problem as real life should not factor into the discussion of fictional materials.

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For example, EAF sent nuclear missiles and caused the Bloody Valentines. ZAFT thought that's it's unfair. And they're correct. After a few years, tsunamis and falling meteors from the fragments of Junius Seven were seen on Earth, though they were caused by Zala faction.


Agian, piss poor argument. Revenge does make things fair.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I don't know who gave you the misconceptions about the workings of Infra-red, but it is not heat seeking, nor is it capable of tracking body heat through material like brick and mortar. It's not Call of Duty, a helicopter can't see you through the roof of a building if the roof is there. Technologically inaccuracies aside."

"Read my lips. There is no such thing as an auto-aiming sniper rifle, and who ever told you there was lied. "

I did not say it was automatically aimed. Take a look at this site.
http://www.x20.org/images2/spectwh1312312343434343.jpg
I was referring that a Special Ops can aim for himself a man of only heat signature. If a man is under the roof, it is a special situation. Have you watched the Behind Enemy Lines 3? When The US Special Ops infiltrated a meeting, which they think it was a terrorist meeting, which is in fact a setup between radical groups of the country they're in, the Special Ops Sniper used his thermal imaging, or is it infra-red? to count the no. of men inside the warehouse.

"Agian, piss poor argument. Revenge does make things fair."

"Revenge begets revenge." That's what Scar's master said in Full Metal Alchemist. Revenge results another revenge. Like when Kimblee killed Scar's brother, Scar killed Winry's parents, then Winry wanted to kill Scar for it.

"A surprise attack is not an unfair advantage for the person doing the attack?"

It's still unfair because America would not think that Japan would turn against it.


"Kira didn't kill anyone that entire episode."

How about the Mobile Suits he destroyed in space? The explosion could have so brutal that the pilot would not be able to eject in time. We are not sure of that. Or during the final battle in SEED Destiny when he destroyed some Mobile Units and their pilot would be floating around while the war is being fought by three sides. The pilot could have run out of oxygen.
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RedZaku
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KnightLoyale wrote:

I did not say it was automatically aimed.


That's precisely what heat-seeking means. It means it automatically seeks out heat sources. That's why a Sparrow is called a heat-seeking missile.

Quote:
Take a look at this site.
http://www.x20.org/images2/spectwh1312312343434343.jpg
I was referring that a Special Ops can aim for himself a man of only heat signature.


That doesn't alter your factual inaccuracy about it being heat seeking, or it being able to track targets through solid objects.

Quote:
If a man is under the roof, it is a special situation.


What the hell? If someone is behind an object it's a special situation? You claimed it could track people through buildings. It cannot. You're simply wrong.

Quote:
Have you watched the Behind Enemy Lines 3? When The US Special Ops infiltrated a meeting, which they think it was a terrorist meeting, which is in fact a setup between radical groups of the country they're in, the Special Ops Sniper used his thermal imaging, or is it infra-red? to count the no. of men inside the warehouse.


Did you ever stop to think that Behind Enemy Lines is a movie? And highly exaggerated for the purpose of being entertaining, and not linked in anyway to factual accuracy. Heat Signatures can't be tracked through solid objects in real life.

Quote:

"Revenge begets revenge." That's what Scar's master said in Full Metal Alchemist. Revenge results another revenge.


And? That quotation has nothing to do with making things fair or equal. It refers to a continual cycle of violence. You taking quotations out of context, or in this case completely making up their meanings =/= good argument

Quote:
Like when Kimblee killed Scar's brother, Scar killed Winry's parents, then Winry wanted to kill Scar for it.


None of which makes anything Fair. Your argument is not proven simply by pointing out lolz look they just keep killing out of revenge. That's not fairness.

Quote:
It's still unfair because America would not think that Japan would turn against it.


What the hell? Look, you know absolutely nothing about American History Circa 1940's that much is abundantly clear. The US KNEW that it's peace talks with Japan were very close to being a complete and total failure when the attack happened.

Quote:
How about the Mobile Suits he destroyed in space?


He shoots their limbs.... He never goes for a direct kill shot to the cockpit of a mobile after the midway point in the original SEED unless it's a named pilot who's pushing him to the point he has to abandon such tactics like Rau, and Shinn.

Quote:
The explosion could have so brutal that the pilot would not be able to eject in time.


What explosion? You clearly missed the entirety of SEED, and Destiny if you think Kira is killing grunt pilots flat out.

Quote:
We are not sure of that. Or during the final battle in SEED Destiny when he destroyed some Mobile Units and their pilot would be floating around while the war is being fought by three sides. The pilot could have run out of oxygen.


What MS, you keep saying he tries to kill all these people but provide no examples. After his conclusion he will not take killshots anymore Kira only attempts to kill 2 other pilots. Rau Le Crueset who he does kill, and Shinn Asuka who he wiffs on 3 times. Aside from those two pilots and one battle ship in episode 49 Kira does not intentionally shoot to kill anyone.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RedZaku wrote:
KnightLoyale wrote:

I did not say it was automatically aimed.


That's precisely what heat-seeking means. It means it automatically seeks out heat sources. That's why a Sparrow is called a heat-seeking missile.

Quote:
Take a look at this site.
http://www.x20.org/images2/spectwh1312312343434343.jpg
I was referring that a Special Ops can aim for himself a man of only heat signature.


That doesn't alter your factual inaccuracy about it being heat seeking, or it being able to track targets through solid objects.

Quote:
If a man is under the roof, it is a special situation.


What the hell? If someone is behind an object it's a special situation? You claimed it could track people through buildings. It cannot. You're simply wrong.

Quote:
Have you watched the Behind Enemy Lines 3? When The US Special Ops infiltrated a meeting, which they think it was a terrorist meeting, which is in fact a setup between radical groups of the country they're in, the Special Ops Sniper used his thermal imaging, or is it infra-red? to count the no. of men inside the warehouse.


Did you ever stop to think that Behind Enemy Lines is a movie? And highly exaggerated for the purpose of being entertaining, and not linked in anyway to factual accuracy. Heat Signatures can't be tracked through solid objects in real life.

Quote:

"Revenge begets revenge." That's what Scar's master said in Full Metal Alchemist. Revenge results another revenge.


And? That quotation has nothing to do with making things fair or equal. It refers to a continual cycle of violence. You taking quotations out of context, or in this case completely making up their meanings =/= good argument

Quote:
Like when Kimblee killed Scar's brother, Scar killed Winry's parents, then Winry wanted to kill Scar for it.


None of which makes anything Fair. Your argument is not proven simply by pointing out lolz look they just keep killing out of revenge. That's not fairness.

Quote:
It's still unfair because America would not think that Japan would turn against it.


What the hell? Look, you know absolutely nothing about American History Circa 1940's that much is abundantly clear. The US KNEW that it's peace talks with Japan were very close to being a complete and total failure when the attack happened.

Quote:
How about the Mobile Suits he destroyed in space?


He shoots their limbs.... He never goes for a direct kill shot to the cockpit of a mobile after the midway point in the original SEED unless it's a named pilot who's pushing him to the point he has to abandon such tactics like Rau, and Shinn.

Quote:
The explosion could have so brutal that the pilot would not be able to eject in time.


What explosion? You clearly missed the entirety of SEED, and Destiny if you think Kira is killing grunt pilots flat out.

Quote:
We are not sure of that. Or during the final battle in SEED Destiny when he destroyed some Mobile Units and their pilot would be floating around while the war is being fought by three sides. The pilot could have run out of oxygen.


What MS, you keep saying he tries to kill all these people but provide no examples. After his conclusion he will not take killshots anymore Kira only attempts to kill 2 other pilots. Rau Le Crueset who he does kill, and Shinn Asuka who he wiffs on 3 times. Aside from those two pilots and one battle ship in episode 49 Kira does not intentionally shoot to kill anyone.


Intentionally or not, he killed them. To kill means to cause the death of. He caused their deaths, Had he not shoot them, they would not have died.

Explosion of MS, of course, if you shoot down an MS, it would explode. And of course, we do not know if the pilot could have survive the explosion of his MS.

"Did you ever stop to think that Behind Enemy Lines is a movie? And highly exaggerated for the purpose of being entertaining, and not linked in anyway to factual accuracy. Heat Signatures can't be tracked through solid objects in real life."

How about you? Did you ever think that everything is possible in America? Impossible would just take much time to make it possible. How about flying? people thought that flying was impossible until the Wright bros. HOw about this one? compare the hot water pipe to human body.

http://findaleak.co.nz/images/locate%20hot%20water%20pipe%20behind%20wall.JPG

If the civilians have done this technology, it would be totally impossible if the government or the military haven't done one.

Take a look at this site too.

http://findaleak.co.nz/building-inspections-auckland.html

So it would be an idiot for the military not to invent one.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KnightLoyale wrote:
Intentionally or not, he killed them.


Killed who? None of the people you claim Kira killed actually died at all.

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To kill means to cause the death of. He caused their deaths, Had he not shoot them, they would not have died.


Who? Who's deaths did he cause? You seem to be just randomly making up a death toll for Kira....

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Explosion of MS, of course, if you shoot down an MS, it would explode.


No, not really. Not Kira has ripped off limbs from MS repeatedly they have never just randomly exploded. Again, you need to stop making random stuff up.

Quote:
And of course, we do not know if the pilot could have survive the explosion of his MS.


None of the MS exploded when Kira fights to return to the AA he just shoots off limbs... The limbs explode the MS are undamaged... If you're STILL talking about the Assassin's THEY KILLED THEMSELVES! They had self detonation systems in their machines and used them.

Quote:
How about you? Did you ever think that everything is possible in America?


I live in America my best friend is Army intelligence, my neighbor pilots Apache Helicopters, and I have two friends in the Navy. They all attest your claim is utter non-sense. You can not pick up IR signatures through solid objects. HELL look at the picture you provided, note areas of his body covered by clothing are actually DIMMER than his head. Even clothing hides body heat.

Quote:
Impossible would just take much time to make it possible.


So now you're trying to argue you're right because, eventually, someday, it's possible that they could, in your estimation make IR that can peer through solid objects? Ugh.

Quote:
How about flying? people thought that flying was impossible until the Wright bros. HOw about this one? compare the hot water pipe to human body.


>.> Umm.........the human body is not a hot water pipe, is this just more of that horrible logic rearing it's ugly head.


Quote:
If the civilians have done this technology, it would be totally impossible if the government or the military haven't done one.


You do realize that was a picture taken of a hot pipe pressing against Dry-wall yes? Do you have any concept of how thin Dry-wall is? Less than a full inch, typically only half an inch. Do you have any concept how hot most heaters can heat water? >.> Well up to waters natural boiling point around 100 degrees Celsius which is 212 degrees Fahrenheit. By contrast the human body is 37 degrees Celsius which is 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit. Do you get just how that is possible now? Wall made of material less than a fullinch thick Water, that's hotter than the human body. Hence why you'll not see through a house. Material = too thick, human body = not as hot.

Quote:
So it would be an idiot for the military not to invent one.


Why would someone mistake images taken through dry-wall for being possible with building structures made of brick and mortar is a far better question.
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